Topics

Dreaded Click and NO START Cause/Photo of Relay


William Finley
 

Stephen

I think you will now have two answers but what you can do is follow this link and enter your groups.io login and password. 

Here is the direct link to the initial login. 


Just copy and paste that string into your browser address bar. 

Login i my case is my email address. 
If you have forgotten your password there is an option to reset your password. 

Once you login you will see a list of the three different view/Navigon groups. 

Hope this helps you

Bill 06vh




On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 12:50 PM Stephen Dasaro <sdasaro785@...> wrote:

Hi Bill,

I receive your posts and many others so I am registered with the site but I can no longer access it on line. Would you be so kind as to send me the URL for the basic as well as the mods and tech sites? I DK what happened but somehow I lost access.

Thanks

Stephen 2013 Winni V J 35k LI NY

 

From: discussion@view-naviontech.groups.io <discussion@view-naviontech.groups.io> On Behalf Of William Finley
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 10:19 AM
To: discussion@view-naviontech.groups.io
Subject: Re: [view-naviontech] Dreaded Click and NO START Cause/Photo of Relay

 

Hikerbuddy

 

I think you may have missed a reply on how hard for 80 year old to Change starter. 

 

I'll try to summarize/help. 

 

Here is a link to a video on how to change starter on 04-06 sprinter from YouTube. 

 

First 15 seconds outlines the tools needed. That's good. 

 

The rest of the video is very dark and not worth much but you can watch it all if you wish. 

 

 

Here is a second YouTube video that is better lit (has better lighting) 

 

 

The starter weighs about 10-15 lbs and needs to be twisted to remove once bolts are out. 

 

There is also at least one black zip tie that you need to cut with wire cutters to free the wiring for the starter as well as a plastic cover over the main 12v supply that must be removed to access the bolt to remove that wire. 

 

 

Last suggestion/option is find local shop that will install a new starter you purchase online (bosch is OEM starter I believe) 

 

Hope this helps you. 

 

Bill 06vh

 

 

 

On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 9:49 AM hikerbuddy01 <dirtdobber40@...> wrote:

Orin, how hard is the starter to change for a 80 yr old?
--
Bob
'08NH
TX


Bob Knight
 

On 10/28/20 10:50 AM, Stephen Dasaro wrote:
Hi Bill,
I receive your posts and many others so I am registered with the site but I can no longer access it on line. Would you be so kind as to send me the URL for the basic as well as the mods and tech sites? I DK what happened but somehow I lost access.
Thanks
Stephen 2013 Winni V J 35k LI NY
*From:* discussion@view-naviontech.groups.io <discussion@view-naviontech.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *William Finley
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 28, 2020 10:19 AM
*To:* discussion@view-naviontech.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [view-naviontech] Dreaded Click and NO START Cause/Photo of Relay
Hikerbuddy
I think you may have missed a reply on how hard for 80 year old to Change starter.
I'll try to summarize/help.
Here is a link to a video on how to change starter on 04-06 sprinter from YouTube.
First 15 seconds outlines the tools needed. That's good.
The rest of the video is very dark and not worth much but you can watch it all if you wish.
https://youtu.be/UF2x14h3uSQ
Here is a second YouTube video that is better lit (has better lighting)
https://youtu.be/cRjBEvLog34
The starter weighs about 10-15 lbs and needs to be twisted to remove once bolts are out.
There is also at least one black zip tie that you need to cut with wire cutters to free the wiring for the starter as well as a plastic cover over the main 12v supply that must be removed to access the bolt to remove that wire.
Last suggestion/option is find local shop that will install a new starter you purchase online (bosch is OEM starter I believe)
Hope this helps you.
Bill 06vh
On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 9:49 AM hikerbuddy01 <dirtdobber40@att.net <mailto:dirtdobber40@att.net>> wrote:
Orin, how hard is the starter to change for a 80 yr old?
--
Bob
'08NH
TX
--
17NJ
Santa Fe, NM


Stephen Dasaro
 

Hi Bill,

I receive your posts and many others so I am registered with the site but I can no longer access it on line. Would you be so kind as to send me the URL for the basic as well as the mods and tech sites? I DK what happened but somehow I lost access.

Thanks

Stephen 2013 Winni V J 35k LI NY

 

From: discussion@view-naviontech.groups.io <discussion@view-naviontech.groups.io> On Behalf Of William Finley
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 10:19 AM
To: discussion@view-naviontech.groups.io
Subject: Re: [view-naviontech] Dreaded Click and NO START Cause/Photo of Relay

 

Hikerbuddy

 

I think you may have missed a reply on how hard for 80 year old to Change starter. 

 

I'll try to summarize/help. 

 

Here is a link to a video on how to change starter on 04-06 sprinter from YouTube. 

 

First 15 seconds outlines the tools needed. That's good. 

 

The rest of the video is very dark and not worth much but you can watch it all if you wish. 

 

 

Here is a second YouTube video that is better lit (has better lighting) 

 

 

The starter weighs about 10-15 lbs and needs to be twisted to remove once bolts are out. 

 

There is also at least one black zip tie that you need to cut with wire cutters to free the wiring for the starter as well as a plastic cover over the main 12v supply that must be removed to access the bolt to remove that wire. 

 

 

Last suggestion/option is find local shop that will install a new starter you purchase online (bosch is OEM starter I believe) 

 

Hope this helps you. 

 

Bill 06vh

 

 

 

On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 9:49 AM hikerbuddy01 <dirtdobber40@...> wrote:

Orin, how hard is the starter to change for a 80 yr old?
--
Bob
'08NH
TX


William Finley
 

Hikerbuddy

I think you may have missed a reply on how hard for 80 year old to Change starter. 

I'll try to summarize/help. 

Here is a link to a video on how to change starter on 04-06 sprinter from YouTube. 

First 15 seconds outlines the tools needed. That's good. 

The rest of the video is very dark and not worth much but you can watch it all if you wish. 


Here is a second YouTube video that is better lit (has better lighting) 


The starter weighs about 10-15 lbs and needs to be twisted to remove once bolts are out. 

There is also at least one black zip tie that you need to cut with wire cutters to free the wiring for the starter as well as a plastic cover over the main 12v supply that must be removed to access the bolt to remove that wire. 


Last suggestion/option is find local shop that will install a new starter you purchase online (bosch is OEM starter I believe) 

Hope this helps you. 

Bill 06vh



On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 9:49 AM hikerbuddy01 <dirtdobber40@...> wrote:
Orin, how hard is the starter to change for a 80 yr old?
--
Bob
'08NH
TX


hikerbuddy01
 

Orin, how hard is the starter to change for a 80 yr old?
--
Bob
'08NH
TX


Orin Score
 

Bob, I replaced the starter myself.  I'm 75 and have always enjoyed tackling things like this.  Can't seem to do much on cars these days....  You need to lie on you back under the engine and work around the front axel.  The electrical connections (two) are removed from the front side underneath and the two bolts are on the back side.  I have fairly slender arms and the right tools so it wasn't extremely hard, just awkward.  Probably took me about two hours total.  I didn't measure the torque - just tightened based on my experience.  I had the same symptoms you describe - now no false starts since replacing!  I got my parts from Rock Auto - even if you bought your part you could take it to a shop to install and save that way.


hikerbuddy01
 

Orin, hard is it to change the starter for an 80 yr old?  What are the torque values for the mounting bolts?  I can get the starter for a fraction of the cost that Mercedes wants to charge.
--
Bob
'08NH
TX


hikerbuddy01
 

Orin, did  you replace the starter yourself?  How easy is it for an 80 year old?  My '08 doesn't click when I turn the key.  It makes no sound and doesn't start.  Have to turn the key several times and it will eventually start.  This doesn't happen every time, only occasionally.  
--
Bob
'08NH
TX


ERH
 

Thanks for the pics!!  Generally speaking, there are two types of solenoid contacts: disc or tab.  Very sad to see the tab copper contact since their higher failure rate over the disc. The tab always is hitting the same spot where is the disc literally  rotates around .The tab is cheaper to manufacturer.


Ken Marr
 

Bob, at al,

That's not carbon, rather, it's copper (II) oxide,  CuO. The poor contact when solenoid closes along with the high current generates significant amounts of heat that causes the copper electrode to oxidize as it reacts with oxygen in the air to generate CuO, a black compound that is a non-conductor:

      2 Cu (s) +  O2 (g) ---> 2 CuO (s)

Ken
11J
WA


Orin Score
 

Bob, I also have an '08NH and have had the intermittent start problem for years.  I replaced the Y cable about a year ago - no change.  So this summer I bought a replacement new Bosch starter from Rock Auto for $171.  It was easier to replace than the Y cable was and I have had no start issues since.  So while the Y cable could be the culprit, my experience showed it to be the starter....
Orin Score
08NH Wisconsin
80,000 miles


Art
 

I would be quite surprised if there wasn't a ground strap on the '07 chassis, every vehicle I've ever owned has had some sort of chassis/engine ground cable.   Easy enough to add a generic NAPA one to see.   I cleaned both ends of mine and added another one but ultimately it was the starter solenoid that solved my periodic issue.

Art
07H


Nigebirch
 

The year 2008 is/was notorious for starting problems because of a bad Y cable.  This is where I would start.

Good luck,

Dorrin 19D (formerly 07J)


William Finley
 

Hello

If you go to the sprinter source www site there are many threads discussing a Y cable that deteriorates over time. 

Of course there are also other issues discussed as potential problems to investigate a click no start issue. 

Your 6 cylinder likely does not have the braided ground strap that I described. I'm no expert on your year but I'm fairly sure I'm sharing accurate information on that. 

Here is one link to an example thread for your year 6 cylinder discussing the Y cable. 


Good luck.

Bill 06vh

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 8:37 PM hikerbuddy01 <dirtdobber40@...> wrote:
My '08 Navion ('07 V6 chassis) has the same problem.  Occasional no start.  I posted a thread earlier this year.  Took the RV to Mercedes and they replaced the ignition module.  NO help.  I am interested in tracking down the "braided" ground cable from the engine to chassis to check that.  Anyone now where to start looking for it on the V6?  I am still of the opinion that it is the starter or starter solenoid but want to check the ground cable first.
--
Bob
'08NH
TX?


hikerbuddy01
 

My '08 Navion ('07 V6 chassis) has the same problem.  Occasional no start.  I posted a thread earlier this year.  Took the RV to Mercedes and they replaced the ignition module.  NO help.  I am interested in tracking down the "braided" ground cable from the engine to chassis to check that.  Anyone now where to start looking for it on the V6?  I am still of the opinion that it is the starter or starter solenoid but want to check the ground cable first.
--
Bob
'08NH
TX?


Bob
 

I don’t believe it’s actually carbon. It’s reference is carbon black. It’s the oxidation of copper at high electric current that is a very dark gray to black. 

Bob

On Oct 21, 2020, at 22:38, David J <dlj04@...> wrote:

Where does the carbon come from? No carbon in copper...


David J
 

Where does the carbon come from? No carbon in copper...


Bob
 

Here’s a cut open boost solenoid.
Same carbon buildup on the contacts due to high current and arcing.

A copper washer type ring touching two hex head bolts. Any bad alignment of the heads and it fails. And the bolts are easily turned during installation.


Bob 18G

On Oct 21, 2020, at 17:13, William Finley <wcfinley@...> wrote:


Hi Glenn

Interesting...feedback on the weather or salt not being the source of corrosion. 

Thank you very much for the feedback and failure analysis. 

Guess I'll just add my new bosch starter to my spares and install when needed. 

Best Regards. 

Bill 06vh 




On Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 11:58 AM Glenn Franco <brakey6666@...> wrote:
Bill
Our Navion/Sprinter has never seen salt even though I purchased in Michigan. The black on the battery terminal is caused by arcing across the two conductors.
In fact our Navion was never stored outdoors but always in an enclosed barn. The fiberglass finish on the coach sides does not show any weathering that causes the surfaces to dull.
Also I cut that solenoid apart on a lathe so those conductors are sealed from the outside elements.

Paul
Good luck on finding a replacement for your Valeo starter. Make sure when you search that you have the starter part number so you get the correct solenoid.
Google and Amazon are not trustworthy to get you the correct solenoid. Make sure in the part listing is shows your starter part number.

Glenn 06 23H 38600 mi

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 10:06 AM Paul Rouis <prouis@...> wrote:

Thanks Glenn and Bill. I had the intermittent issue and replaced the starter with a Valeo from Europarts.

I think it was about $200. Works perfectly after replacement.

I saved the old one and will see if I can follow your leads and rebuild it as a spare for $50 or so.

Paul

07VJNY

 

From: discussion@view-naviontech.groups.io <discussion@view-naviontech.groups.io> On Behalf Of William Finley
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 9:45 AM
To: discussion@view-naviontech.groups.io
Subject: Re: [view-naviontech] Dreaded Click and NO START Cause/Photo of Relay

 

Glenn

 

Thanks again for sharing your learning experience on the starter motor.

 

Do you have any idea what the road service use was on your rig? 

 

One of the early 06 rigs I looked at for purchase was used extensively for hunting trips in the northeast displayed a lot of rust on the exposed metal undercarriage. 

 

My rig has never seen snow or salt (except for some road ice in south Carolina one scary January day) 

 

I'm just wondering what may have caused the copper to corrode. 

 

The braided strap I removed and cleaned showed no evidence of corrosion. Im replacing it out of an abundance of caution and the fact that it costs $12 and is a 10 minute job to replace. 

 

I'm not doubting your findings just sharing mine.

 

Best Regards.

 

Bill 06vh

 

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 8:41 AM Glenn Franco <brakey6666@...> wrote:

Hey Bill

The only service fix for the starter is to replace it or the solenoid.

Solenoid if you can find one is less than $40 so that is my preferred fix. The starter motor is fine and should function with the new solenoid.

Make sure you pull the starter motor part number which is stamped on the main housing and match it up with what's available on eBay.

That's the only place I have been able to find one.

The photo I provided shows a solenoid that was cut at the crimp and their is no going back at that point.

Glenn 06 23H 38600 mi

 

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 8:01 AM MichiganView <deepthinkers@...> wrote:

Thx Glenn —

 

Great work — it should prove helpful to many owners! Would owners be able to ‘field service’ this  - maybe clean up the contacts and apply a bit of dielectric? Do you have field service recommendations?  Bill V12J MI

 

 

[snip] "I pulled the old solenoid that failed with 32,000 miles on it and chucked it up in my metal lathe. I used a parting tool to cut off the crimp that holds the plastic end cap with the terminals off to see if I could locate the problem.
What I found is that the copper strip and battery terminal contact is severely corroded and prevents the strip from providing any current to the motor terminal. That condition is what is causing the click of the solenoid but no starter cranking or motor spinning.
See attached photos that show the condition.
” [snip]


younglr98
 

Thanks Glenn!  Is solenoid mounted on the starter?   I'm finally having to replace my boost solenoid after 8 years 90K miles. Been carrying spare forever!  Can't wait to cut it open.   Roger 07VJ E WA


William Finley
 

Hi Glenn

Interesting...feedback on the weather or salt not being the source of corrosion. 

Thank you very much for the feedback and failure analysis. 

Guess I'll just add my new bosch starter to my spares and install when needed. 

Best Regards. 

Bill 06vh 




On Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 11:58 AM Glenn Franco <brakey6666@...> wrote:
Bill
Our Navion/Sprinter has never seen salt even though I purchased in Michigan. The black on the battery terminal is caused by arcing across the two conductors.
In fact our Navion was never stored outdoors but always in an enclosed barn. The fiberglass finish on the coach sides does not show any weathering that causes the surfaces to dull.
Also I cut that solenoid apart on a lathe so those conductors are sealed from the outside elements.

Paul
Good luck on finding a replacement for your Valeo starter. Make sure when you search that you have the starter part number so you get the correct solenoid.
Google and Amazon are not trustworthy to get you the correct solenoid. Make sure in the part listing is shows your starter part number.

Glenn 06 23H 38600 mi

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 10:06 AM Paul Rouis <prouis@...> wrote:

Thanks Glenn and Bill. I had the intermittent issue and replaced the starter with a Valeo from Europarts.

I think it was about $200. Works perfectly after replacement.

I saved the old one and will see if I can follow your leads and rebuild it as a spare for $50 or so.

Paul

07VJNY

 

From: discussion@view-naviontech.groups.io <discussion@view-naviontech.groups.io> On Behalf Of William Finley
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 9:45 AM
To: discussion@view-naviontech.groups.io
Subject: Re: [view-naviontech] Dreaded Click and NO START Cause/Photo of Relay

 

Glenn

 

Thanks again for sharing your learning experience on the starter motor.

 

Do you have any idea what the road service use was on your rig? 

 

One of the early 06 rigs I looked at for purchase was used extensively for hunting trips in the northeast displayed a lot of rust on the exposed metal undercarriage. 

 

My rig has never seen snow or salt (except for some road ice in south Carolina one scary January day) 

 

I'm just wondering what may have caused the copper to corrode. 

 

The braided strap I removed and cleaned showed no evidence of corrosion. Im replacing it out of an abundance of caution and the fact that it costs $12 and is a 10 minute job to replace. 

 

I'm not doubting your findings just sharing mine.

 

Best Regards.

 

Bill 06vh

 

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 8:41 AM Glenn Franco <brakey6666@...> wrote:

Hey Bill

The only service fix for the starter is to replace it or the solenoid.

Solenoid if you can find one is less than $40 so that is my preferred fix. The starter motor is fine and should function with the new solenoid.

Make sure you pull the starter motor part number which is stamped on the main housing and match it up with what's available on eBay.

That's the only place I have been able to find one.

The photo I provided shows a solenoid that was cut at the crimp and their is no going back at that point.

Glenn 06 23H 38600 mi

 

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 8:01 AM MichiganView <deepthinkers@...> wrote:

Thx Glenn —

 

Great work — it should prove helpful to many owners! Would owners be able to ‘field service’ this  - maybe clean up the contacts and apply a bit of dielectric? Do you have field service recommendations?  Bill V12J MI

 

 

[snip] "I pulled the old solenoid that failed with 32,000 miles on it and chucked it up in my metal lathe. I used a parting tool to cut off the crimp that holds the plastic end cap with the terminals off to see if I could locate the problem.
What I found is that the copper strip and battery terminal contact is severely corroded and prevents the strip from providing any current to the motor terminal. That condition is what is causing the click of the solenoid but no starter cranking or motor spinning.
See attached photos that show the condition.
” [snip]