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Seeking replacement Lithium Charger model/brand upgrade info for existing solar on View/Navion's


ERH
 

This seeks What type Lithium Charger brand and model installed in the 2020 or 2021 View/Navion so I can install in my 2017 Navion I'm upgrading.  Love our Navion!  But need more off-grid pwr (especially in winter camp).  So, just ordered 2 Battle Born 100 Ah 12V GC2 LiFePo4 batteries which should fit perfect in the coach battery well.  HOWEVER, I'll need to increase the charging volts to 14.3.  This means I'll be replacing my INTELI Power converter PD9245C which designed for lead acid charging of 13.6.  I'm concerned about how the 14.3 volts will impact the 12v system in the coach since the charger is connected to the 12v coach buss bar (I traced the wires).  I'm also increasing the solar but keeping the Zamp PWT controller.  Next I'm researching a 3000 watt inverter.  Not interested in Victron's multi as it takes up soo much room and when it goes bad, everything is down.  Thanks for any help and/or recommendations.


Dunc 18ND W.CO
 

I installed a Victron Multiplus 3kW unit for several reasons. The most attractive feature is its "assist" mode where you can set the shore power draw to a low value to insure you do not trip circuit breakers when moochdocking from a friend's driveway 15A outlet. It also handles automatic switch over and has a trickle charger for your chassis battery. Mine is mounted in the right forward outside bay close to coach battery to keep lines short. You just need to run one AC power line after removing the old charger, and tie two AC power lines together above the existing inverter and switch over.
--
Dunc, W.CO, 2018 N24D
800W Solar, 10kWh Tesla Coach
Gyrocopter Toad


Rick 17VV
 

Might want to look at some kind of inverter/charger. They tend to put
out more charging power and also give you more a/c to support your
boondocking. With two hundred lithium AH's you should be good to go.

Rick L Reynolds
17VV

On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 7:01 AM Dunc 18ND W.CO <n185ra@gmail.com> wrote:

I installed a Victron Multiplus 3kW unit for several reasons. The most attractive feature is its "assist" mode where you can set the shore power draw to a low value to insure you do not trip circuit breakers when moochdocking from a friend's driveway 15A outlet. It also handles automatic switch over and has a trickle charger for your chassis battery. Mine is mounted in the right forward outside bay close to coach battery to keep lines short. You just need to run one AC power line after removing the old charger, and tie two AC power lines together above the existing inverter and switch over.
--
Dunc, W.CO, 2018 N24D
800W Solar, 10kWh Tesla Coach
Gyrocopter Toad
--
Rick
17V


David J
 

The difference between 14.3 and 13.6 is about 5 percent. I can give up 5 percent of capacity. I installed a Battle Born in parallel with the factory 12 volt flooded cells and researched whether there was any other downside to using 3.4 volts as a cell target voltage versus 3.58 and there isn't one as far as I can tell. I can set up our solar controller to charge up to 14.3 volts when we are boondocking and an extra few percent might be useful. When it's time to replace the lead-acid batteries I will likely put more LiFePO4 batteries there.

Based on good experience with a couple of other installations we are using a Blue Sky Solar Boost 3000i solar controller, and a Tripp-Lite RV1250ULHW inverter. I saw no reason to tempt fate with a 3000 watt inverter. The 1250 is also a smart charger that's a backup for the factory PD 8345 converter -- wired in but not turned on. We have had good luck with the 750 watt version of the Tripp-Lite in a Roadtrek. I added an outlet strip to the shelf above the bed, and an outlet at the front of the bed structure, both tied in to the #2 receptacle circuit (also runs to the dinette and over-cab bed.) This circuit is now fed by the Tripp-Lite, and the breaker that formerly fed that circuit now goes to its AC input.

I am an electrical engineer, have built and maintained quite a few solar/battery systems for remote communications sites and am now working on electric vehicle projects that give me access to some good lithium battery engineers. While I can troubleshoot, modify and repair to the component level I prefer to keep things as simple as possible. The display of the 3000i and the remote panel of the Tripp-Lite give me all the information I need on the road.


ERH
 

Thank you for you experienced insights. I'm retired systems engineer and as you probably know, definitely not experts in electrical engineering. but rely heavily on other's skill sets like yours.



Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy® Note 4.


-------- Original message --------
From: David J <dlj04@...>
Date: 9/30/20 13:58 (GMT-05:00)
To: discussion@view-naviontech.groups.io
Subject: Re: [view-naviontech] Seeking replacement Lithium Charger model/brand upgrade info for existing solar on View/Navion's

The difference between 14.3 and 13.6 is about 5 percent. I can give up 5 percent of capacity. I installed a Battle Born in parallel with the factory 12 volt flooded cells and researched whether there was any other downside to using 3.4 volts as a cell target voltage versus 3.58 and there isn't one as far as I can tell. I can set up our solar controller to charge up to 14.3 volts when we are boondocking and an extra few percent might be useful. When it's time to replace the lead-acid batteries I will likely put more LiFePO4 batteries there.

Based on good experience with a couple of other installations we are using a Blue Sky Solar Boost 3000i solar controller, and a Tripp-Lite RV1250ULHW inverter. I saw no reason to tempt fate with a 3000 watt inverter. The 1250 is also a smart charger that's a backup for the factory PD 8345 converter -- wired in but not turned on. We have had good luck with the 750 watt version of the Tripp-Lite in a Roadtrek. I added an outlet strip to the shelf above the bed, and an outlet at the front of the bed structure, both tied in to the #2 receptacle circuit (also runs to the dinette and over-cab bed.) This circuit is now fed by the Tripp-Lite, and the breaker that formerly fed that circuit now goes to its AC input.

I am an electrical engineer, have built and maintained quite a few solar/battery systems for remote communications sites and am now working on electric vehicle projects that give me access to some good lithium battery engineers. While I can troubleshoot, modify and repair to the component level I prefer to keep things as simple as possible. The display of the 3000i and the remote panel of the Tripp-Lite give me all the information I need on the road.


old_b4_my_time
 

@David J - glad to see some experience in this area brought to the table.   Very interesting. I had tossed around some of these ideas as well but the people who make money promoting stuff like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgoIocPgOug have caused so much of their high-end / high-dollar equipment to be sold based on the lack of knowledge and field experience and this means the fear of mere mortals who don't want their systems going up in smoke are left with only an option of "snaping to it", opening their wallets and falling in line when coming up with a solution based on lithium and thus they buy whatever these wheeler-dealer equipment sellers set on the counter in front of them.   So basically everyone remains too scared to deviate from the megaphones preaching this "elaborate equipment needed" gospel and there ends up not being any experimenters left  working on alternatives and leaving little fight left in anyone to challenge this mega-equipment model.   (And if you add in the 1-3 "alphas" who "man" these and similar fora, it keeps just about everyone who could contribute staying hidden on the sidelines while afraid to speak even when they do have some great experimental data to share, else they receive the fire-hose of ridicule some of us fall victim to LOL)

I'm toying around now with perhaps also adding some drop in replacement lithium style batteries and the thought of "I wish I could keep the two new GC2's I just bought" has come to mind.   Knowing that you have been able to parallel them with lead acids is quite enlightening.  I was thinking I might kept the two GC2s under the stairs and build a box under the coach in all that open area under the frame that's not utilized.    If I can find some 12v heating pads from ali I could even insulate the box as well and intersperse the elements with the cells and control via a thermostat to keep the lithiums from freezing.)   I am what they call "pinchy" here where I hang out most of the time, meaning in the local language that I'm first on the block for the smallest amount spent for the hopefully best payback.   I'm also not completely bought in to the "you get what you pay for" but I'm most known for "you get what you do your best  research for".   Equipment-wise, for an inverter I have an Amazon generic 2000W pure sine wave inverter I picked up for $179 on a "black Friday special".  It seems to eat anything I throw at it including the microwave (with only a 150A load to accompany that LOL).  (Admit I got this lead from some old-timers over on IRV2 who suggested I not follow the fan-boys in the high dollar equipment lines buying the most expensive toys in the box.)  And I've already said my piece on playing with battery operated HVAC units (I simply stick to the "Neilson Factor" in this case - traveling where "the weather suits my clothes", as I believe to be locked in a location in an ice box is only for disgruntled office workers).

Additionally I'm currently using dissimilar size panels totaling about 470 watts that I've seen up to 30A into my dual GC2 bank at high noon in Texas.   I have the solar controllers both set on their maximum, one at 14.6V (no-name Chinese MPPT) and the other at 14.4 (no-name Chinese PWM).   In the times I have the vehicle in shade running off 120VAC, I just rely on the stock 13.8V converter for day to day use.   I keep the generator on standby for boondocking "rainy-week emergencies" and when needed I'll start the generator powering a modified PD 70A 14.8V converter that I have on a timer.  It will top the  2 GC2s up from say 55% to 90% in about 1.5 hrs.   So I have the PD 70A on standby and a wind up timer that I use only on periods of low to no solar and no willing "grid" power donor within reach.

I stick mostly to a theory I've developed over the years, knowing what is calculated on paper is not always what is seen in practice.  While some would sweat the 14.8V I have being routed into lithium, I'm betting if things work out the same way I've seen my lead acids, where the load at 55% discharge is significant to pull that down to 14.4 by the time it is measured across the posts and seen by the battery monitor, I can't help but believe a depleted lithium would produce a similar scenario (I am only speculating at this point) and thus even though the 14.8V proclaimed output of the PD is above the BMS cut-off of 14.6V (I believe), I would estimate that the voltage that is actually across the battery (knowing that the discharged battery is going to be putting quite a load on that PD 70A unit, my guess at this point is the BMS is not going to shut down until the charge of the battery is near full and the amperage draw is low enough to allow the 14.8V to "seek it's peak" and thus the BMS might only shut it down at near the end of it's charge cycle.    But I don't care really if that happens as long as I get to within 5% or so of full charge.  Still all this has to be tested since experimenters in this area have been beaten into submission by the B2B crowd.

So I hope you continue to share here.    I've also found some interesting data on the Mercedes alternator and how resilient it is and thus it is not making more and more sense to me that those who say they use no B2B charger when recharging via the alternator are making it fine with a 200aH lithium bank.   In fact something I plan to share soon is by someone who is direct-connection alternator charging with no issues while powering a 400aH lithium bank, and a guy who incidentally doesn't even use solar because he knows like that same belief I have been challenged about, that solar is only for decoration if you've got a 400aH or larger bank and the real charging power is coming from converted petroleum energy once the lithium bank capacity grows to a certain level.  
--
Don - 2006 Navion J


old_b4_my_time
 

On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 05:31 AM, ERH wrote:
I'll be replacing my INTELI Power converter PD9245C
Hello ERH:   According to the manufacturer of your supply, if you either now have or wish to purchase the "Remote Pendant" (an accessory that comes with this converter if you buy it commercially but does not come with it if it is factory installed.   With this "remote Pendant" (same thing I use on my PD to keep it in Boost all the time) you can set your existing converter to 14.4VDC (set it manually to "Boost") and this will charge at the higher voltage.    As far as what type of effects you might see from this high voltage, I would say likely none since I assume that sometime during the day to day operation your converter/charger hit the "Boost" and there must have been no fall-out.   Here is the manual:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwinq_vB7pTsAhUDEawKHTXFAp8QFjABegQICRAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.progressivedyn.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F05%2F109821F-english.pdf 
 
--
Don - 2006 Navion J


David Harper
 

Hi All,

Regards to using lead acid and lithium in parallel, Victron blog has some interesting discussions of people who have successfully done so:


Best

David
2008 VJ

On Oct 1, 2020, at 7:13 PM, old_b4_my_time <donphillipe@...> wrote:

@David J - glad to see some experience in this area brought to the table.   Very interesting. I had tossed around some of these ideas as well but the people who make money promoting stuff like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgoIocPgOug have caused so much of their high-end / high-dollar equipment to be sold based on the lack of knowledge and field experience and this means the fear of mere mortals who don't want their systems going up in smoke are left with only an option of "snaping to it", opening their wallets and falling in line when coming up with a solution based on lithium and thus they buy whatever these wheeler-dealer equipment sellers set on the counter in front of them.   So basically everyone remains too scared to deviate from the megaphones preaching this "elaborate equipment needed" gospel and there ends up not being any experimenters left  working on alternatives and leaving little fight left in anyone to challenge this mega-equipment model.   (And if you add in the 1-3 "alphas" who "man" these and similar fora, it keeps just about everyone who could contribute staying hidden on the sidelines while afraid to speak even when they do have some great experimental data to share, else they receive the fire-hose of ridicule some of us fall victim to LOL)

I'm toying around now with perhaps also adding some drop in replacement lithium style batteries and the thought of "I wish I could keep the two new GC2's I just bought" has come to mind.   Knowing that you have been able to parallel them with lead acids is quite enlightening.  I was thinking I might kept the two GC2s under the stairs and build a box under the coach in all that open area under the frame that's not utilized.    If I can find some 12v heating pads from ali I could even insulate the box as well and intersperse the elements with the cells and control via a thermostat to keep the lithiums from freezing.)   I am what they call "pinchy" here where I hang out most of the time, meaning in the local language that I'm first on the block for the smallest amount spent for the hopefully best payback.   I'm also not completely bought in to the "you get what you pay for" but I'm most known for "you get what you do your best  research for".   Equipment-wise, for an inverter I have an Amazon generic 2000W pure sine wave inverter I picked up for $179 on a "black Friday special".  It seems to eat anything I throw at it including the microwave (with only a 150A load to accompany that LOL).  (Admit I got this lead from some old-timers over on IRV2 who suggested I not follow the fan-boys in the high dollar equipment lines buying the most expensive toys in the box.)  And I've already said my piece on playing with battery operated HVAC units (I simply stick to the "Neilson Factor" in this case - traveling where "the weather suits my clothes", as I believe to be locked in a location in an ice box is only for disgruntled office workers).

Additionally I'm currently using dissimilar size panels totaling about 470 watts that I've seen up to 30A into my dual GC2 bank at high noon in Texas.   I have the solar controllers both set on their maximum, one at 14.6V (no-name Chinese MPPT) and the other at 14.4 (no-name Chinese PWM).   In the times I have the vehicle in shade running off 120VAC, I just rely on the stock 13.8V converter for day to day use.   I keep the generator on standby for boondocking "rainy-week emergencies" and when needed I'll start the generator powering a modified PD 70A 14.8V converter that I have on a timer.  It will top the  2 GC2s up from say 55% to 90% in about 1.5 hrs.   So I have the PD 70A on standby and a wind up timer that I use only on periods of low to no solar and no willing "grid" power donor within reach.

I stick mostly to a theory I've developed over the years, knowing what is calculated on paper is not always what is seen in practice.  While some would sweat the 14.8V I have being routed into lithium, I'm betting if things work out the same way I've seen my lead acids, where the load at 55% discharge is significant to pull that down to 14.4 by the time it is measured across the posts and seen by the battery monitor, I can't help but believe a depleted lithium would produce a similar scenario (I am only speculating at this point) and thus even though the 14.8V proclaimed output of the PD is above the BMS cut-off of 14.6V (I believe), I would estimate that the voltage that is actually across the battery (knowing that the discharged battery is going to be putting quite a load on that PD 70A unit, my guess at this point is the BMS is not going to shut down until the charge of the battery is near full and the amperage draw is low enough to allow the 14.8V to "seek it's peak" and thus the BMS might only shut it down at near the end of it's charge cycle.    But I don't care really if that happens as long as I get to within 5% or so of full charge.  Still all this has to be tested since experimenters in this area have been beaten into submission by the B2B crowd.

So I hope you continue to share here.    I've also found some interesting data on the Mercedes alternator and how resilient it is and thus it is not making more and more sense to me that those who say they use no B2B charger when recharging via the alternator are making it fine with a 200aH lithium bank.   In fact something I plan to share soon is by someone who is direct-connection alternator charging with no issues while powering a 400aH lithium bank, and a guy who incidentally doesn't even use solar because he knows like that same belief I have been challenged about, that solar is only for decoration if you've got a 400aH or larger bank and the real charging power is coming from converted petroleum energy once the lithium bank capacity grows to a certain level.  
--
Don - 2006 Navion J



David J
 

As the Victron discussion reports, the current into and out of the different batteries changes over the course of the charge/discharge cycle. No harm in that, an interesting point for system designers but not much to worry about. While I can and do measure and calculate all these things, my goal when on the road is to not have to think about it.  I am not interested in timers, bypass dongles or other intervention. @Don, sorry, if your calculations don't agree with practical observations, you're doing one or both wrong. That's the point of science, you have to figure out the error in your thinking. Nothing is going to blow up here, the worst case is that undercharging lithium cells will give you a little less useful stored energy, and overcharging will cause the BMS to trip or boil the lead-acid cells. Agree completely with your point about making your own tests and conclusions. Unfortunately many V/N owners don't have the technical background to sort the signal from the noise, so if we want to be helpful we need to sift out the actionable big chunks. @ERH, a lot of my work could be called systems engineering. Our task is to make sure satisfaction is optimal over the whole range of user experience, within the constraints we have, right? Perfect can be the enemy of good. 

On the issue of limiting charge current to avoid blowing fuses or damage to alternators, once again I wasn't chasing the last percent. I used 4 gauge wire and figured that the voltage drop during the brief period that the lithium was drawing maximum current would be sufficient to limit current to a safe value. As you suggest it's the voltage at the terminal posts that matters.

I strongly prefer the economy and reliability of flooded lead acid. GC2s, T105s, L16s have powered all of my previous projects. However I wanted to add another kWh or so inside and didn't want charging gases and acid vapor there, hence the lithium. I could duplicate the Battle Born design for about 1/3 less money but I'm still working and it's cheaper for me to buy theirs. Likewise, I have some noname sinewave inverters and they work fine. But they are dumb and the automatic switchover, smart charger and fault tolerance of the TrippLite is worth $450 for a 1250 watt unit. It's almost $300 more to buy it with a line cord and outlets on the front panel versus the hardwired version.

As for posting what I discover, thanks I'm glad you find it useful and I'll continue to do that. If that helps me find more errors in my thinking, it's all worthwhile. In 50 years of working in metrology and acoustics I'm accustomed to a firehose of ridicule. I'm happy to get sharper on experimentally confirmed facts but don't have much time to debate what so-and-so's opinion is (unless they are my customer, who is always right ;))


old_b4_my_time
 

On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 12:30 PM, David J wrote:
@Don, sorry, if your calculations don't agree with practical observations

I am not certain I understand what you are saying here.   I simply described my setup and stated that it works fine for me and should for others who are interested as well.  It's an option but by no means a religious movement (no one's going to hell if they do it another way).  It's more simple than one would imagine and something that I picked up with the assistance of many old RVers who have been living in these things for years and well before the V/N was even someone's dream.   My setup (unlike their old setups, however) provides 100% solar power and when the sun goes behind a cloud for hours or days at a time, when the battery gets down to about 55-60%, then all I do is start the generator, set the timer for 1.5 hours and when you hear it click off, the battery should be up to 90% or a little better and I can power off the generator.   You don't continue charging because it would take several hours more to get to 100% and it's simply not worth the fuel or time you would invest in attempting that.  You have to reduce energy consumption at this point and work with the 50 or 55% to 90% power window until the sun comes back out and then assuming you have solar or run into a power pole somewhere, then you can keep going on up to 100%.

Otherwise I don't know why this would be perceived as my challenging or disrespecting science as I don't know how much more scientific one can get than following such a simple procedure and observing that it works exactly the same, over and over and over again, as it has I am certain since the first RVers have expressed it to me as a solution.  In fact I believe the old-timers who are today likely deceased and even some who aren't, those previous generation RVers who shared it with me "had it down" and I'm only adopting from their wisdom.   In fact some of those same IRV2 guys from pre-Sprinter days, from my understanding were using 14.8V - 15VDC ham radio power supplies to top their batteries off and well before these multi-stage converter/chargers even came on the market or even before solar became practical and back in the days when shore power and the alternator was the only energy source game in town.  As far as dongles, etc. I used the dongle for one purpose alone, to produce a steady high current 14.8V source (disabling all the multi-stage activity, equalizing, and all of that what-not that has become popular recently and that I didn't need because I only boost.)    The problem with simply using a ham power supply like the old-school RV owners did is that the only economical ones I found for sale tapered off at about 40A and it just makes more sense to buy a 70A charger and use the dongle to set it permanently at it's highest voltage rating, because I wasn't going to leave the generator running anyway for longer than the boost cycle that I was shooting for and in fact, I wasn't even interested in an entire boost cycle (going up to 100% which is impractical and takes too long).

Otherwise all  I really have to say elsewhere is that people are writing to me offline, telling me that they are running with no repercussions without a B2B converter while everyone in this group seems to lean the other way.  (To me it doesn't say much about a group when people with counter experiences and ideas are fearful of expressing themselves online any longer because of the 1-3 alphas I spoke of earlier, but that's just an observation and there's nothing I can personally do about that other than standing up and saying I don't really care if they want to name call and ridicule or not, and to "have at it" while I make an invite for everyone to join in who has something to say, of course there's no real need for another one telling the other he doesn't know what he is talking about, as who can claim to be a genius these days in the declining gene pool :-)  :-) .)  

Along another tangent, historically I also used to be in the B2B camp but people are changing my mind these days while proving the Sprinter alternator will take care of itself and pretty much as long as you stay under 400 aH is what I am hearing.  As far as the Victron youtube demo, if you listen under their breath they say how slow the burning alternator is being turned by the electric motor, much slower than the idle RPM of our Sprinters and there are other under breath comments in this video as well that prove its true value, comments that can easily be picked out and comments  I don't have time to go through and listen for all the gotchas of misrepresenting reality.  Still there's nothing that says Youtube videos must be truthful and they've made a ton of money showing how this alternator burns up while keeping alive the rumor you cannot use a conventional alternator for charging.     Now if you've read anything else into my comments, it may not be well founded.   My goal is only to share information.   Of course I do enjoy the offers of beers and kudos when I explain to some deserved soul the situation as my mother used to say when they are obviously "getting a little too big for their britches".  LOL.
 
--
Don - 2006 Navion J


David J
 

Don, maybe you need another beer.


On 10/2/2020 3:22 PM, old_b4_my_time wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 12:30 PM, David J wrote:
>
> @Don, sorry, if your calculations don't agree with practical
> observations
>
>
> I am not certain I understand what you are saying here.   I simply
> described my setup and stated that it works fine for me and should for

Your setup works and would work for anyone else who wants to approach it that way, for reasons you and I understand. I was responding to your comment:

"I stick mostly to a theory I've developed over the years, knowing what is calculated on paper is not always what is seen in practice. While some would sweat the 14.8V I have being routed into lithium..."

Once again, if what you calculate on paper doesn't match what you see in practice, one or the other or both of those data sets is wrong. It's the scientist's job to figure that out.

David


Cal
 

This isn't the forum for " Seeking replacement Lithium Charger model/brand upgrade info for existing solar on View/Navion's"
   Good advice can be gotten at DIY Solar.  I installed 180 AH LiFePO4 cells in my '07 Navion as well in a VW Westfalia that I own.  Very pleased with the Navion install.  Since then I haven't used the generator.  Building your own battery is a lot cheaper.  I purchased 8 CALB 180AH cells for $1200.  That's only $600 per battery.  Getting close to lead acid battery cost since one would compare a 180AH LiFePO4 battery to a 360AH LAB.  

Couple things to mention.
1.  Always install a dc/dc to interface with the alternator.  Li batteries have extremely low resistance.  No need to stress the alt, belt, or engine.  Li batteries don't like extreme high currents either.  

2.  Paralleling Li battery with LAB is a bad idea.   Li batteries have no surface charge as LAB do.  My cells receive a max charge of 3.48V, or 13.92V for the battery.  That's not enough charge for the LAB.  It will quickly sulfate and become useless.


On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 3:43 PM David J <dlj04@...> wrote:
Don, maybe you need another beer.

On 10/2/2020 3:22 PM, old_b4_my_time wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 12:30 PM, David J wrote:
>
> @Don, sorry, if your calculations don't agree with practical
> observations
>
>
> I am not certain I understand what you are saying here.   I simply
> described my setup and stated that it works fine for me and should for

Your setup works and would work for anyone else who wants to approach it that way, for reasons you and I understand. I was responding to your comment:

"I stick mostly to a theory I've developed over the years, knowing what is calculated on paper is not always what is seen in practice. While some would sweat the 14.8V I have being routed into lithium..."

Once again, if what you calculate on paper doesn't match what you see in practice, one or the other or both of those data sets is wrong. It's the scientist's job to figure that out.

David


ERH
 

Thank you for your advice!!  I called Winnebago for the actual wiring diagram of the navion. While did not send me all I needed, it was enough and very very complete.  The wiring under the passenger seat leaves a lot to be desired. I'm impressed with the engineering but not with the execution. As a result a sloppy install the 40 amp circuit breaker was charted burn because of a loose connection. After thoroughly checking everything out and verifying no shorts, I reinstalled a new 40 amp circuit breaker and everything works fine. I am concerned about the load on the alternator and I'm taking everybody's advice to put a dc-to-dc charger on it. Thanks again, Earl



Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy® Note 4.


-------- Original message --------
From: Cal <calbiker@...>
Date: 10/2/20 19:23 (GMT-05:00)
To: discussion@view-naviontech.groups.io
Subject: Re: [view-naviontech] Seeking replacement Lithium Charger model/brand upgrade info for existing solar on View/Navion's

This isn't the forum for " Seeking replacement Lithium Charger model/brand upgrade info for existing solar on View/Navion's"
   Good advice can be gotten at DIY Solar.  I installed 180 AH LiFePO4 cells in my '07 Navion as well in a VW Westfalia that I own.  Very pleased with the Navion install.  Since then I haven't used the generator.  Building your own battery is a lot cheaper.  I purchased 8 CALB 180AH cells for $1200.  That's only $600 per battery.  Getting close to lead acid battery cost since one would compare a 180AH LiFePO4 battery to a 360AH LAB.  

Couple things to mention.
1.  Always install a dc/dc to interface with the alternator.  Li batteries have extremely low resistance.  No need to stress the alt, belt, or engine.  Li batteries don't like extreme high currents either.  

2.  Paralleling Li battery with LAB is a bad idea.   Li batteries have no surface charge as LAB do.  My cells receive a max charge of 3.48V, or 13.92V for the battery.  That's not enough charge for the LAB.  It will quickly sulfate and become useless.


On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 3:43 PM David J <dlj04@...> wrote:
Don, maybe you need another beer.

On 10/2/2020 3:22 PM, old_b4_my_time wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 12:30 PM, David J wrote:
>
> @Don, sorry, if your calculations don't agree with practical
> observations
>
>
> I am not certain I understand what you are saying here.   I simply
> described my setup and stated that it works fine for me and should for

Your setup works and would work for anyone else who wants to approach it that way, for reasons you and I understand. I was responding to your comment:

"I stick mostly to a theory I've developed over the years, knowing what is calculated on paper is not always what is seen in practice. While some would sweat the 14.8V I have being routed into lithium..."

Once again, if what you calculate on paper doesn't match what you see in practice, one or the other or both of those data sets is wrong. It's the scientist's job to figure that out.

David


ERH
 

Thsnks!  I ordered the pendant and should be here this Sunday!
I really appreciate the insights and recommendations from all ...has saved me time, money and frustration.
Earl



Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy® Note 4.


-------- Original message --------
From: old_b4_my_time <donphillipe@...>
Date: 10/1/20 22:39 (GMT-05:00)
To: discussion@view-naviontech.groups.io
Subject: Re: [view-naviontech] Seeking replacement Lithium Charger model/brand upgrade info for existing solar on View/Navion's

On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 05:31 AM, ERH wrote:
I'll be replacing my INTELI Power converter PD9245C
Hello ERH:   According to the manufacturer of your supply, if you either now have or wish to purchase the "Remote Pendant" (an accessory that comes with this converter if you buy it commercially but does not come with it if it is factory installed.   With this "remote Pendant" (same thing I use on my PD to keep it in Boost all the time) you can set your existing converter to 14.4VDC (set it manually to "Boost") and this will charge at the higher voltage.    As far as what type of effects you might see from this high voltage, I would say likely none since I assume that sometime during the day to day operation your converter/charger hit the "Boost" and there must have been no fall-out.   Here is the manual:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwinq_vB7pTsAhUDEawKHTXFAp8QFjABegQICRAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.progressivedyn.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F05%2F109821F-english.pdf 
 
--
Don - 2006 Navion J


old_b4_my_time
 

On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 03:43 PM, David J wrote:
Don, maybe you need another beer.
Again, not following you.   I normally enjoy beer most in a beach setting but it's been over a year now since I enjoyed a good beach and certainly time to get back, I'd agree.  Damn the Covid, aye?   All I can glean from this back and forth though is you must have a 3rd eye in that you are able to read deeper than the surface level of my words which I suppose is a notable gift.   It's almost a Chauncey Gardiner moment.   Regardless the bad thing about the great beers being brewed right now is if you can't get the one you want, your palate becomes tarnished to the point if you have to settle you end up more often than not, simply doing without.  You also are often faced with entering a gigantic liquor store seeking out something different and you see all these foo-foo hard ciders, pre-mixed cocktails and cheap trash honing in on your beer space from a few years ago and it makes you a little angry.   You also look at all the hopes and dreams of all the new brewers and after wasting hundreds of dollars on testing their new offerings you come to the conclusion that those dreams are mostly delusions, while some taste like variances of soaked garden weeds or someones stagnant copper pipe, even the best they have to offer which can't even contend with something like a Corona or Coors, bad as they are.  You also get a little torqued off when looking at the fine print one some new flashy-ad micro-brew contender while you pull out the smart phone and see it is actually made by Budweiser or Heineken.  Fake beer!  Then for a few moments you consider relocating all that particular stock to the domestic beer doors near the front of the building, but then realize it's not worth a trip to the police station for simply making one thing just in this world, by exposing one more fake micro-brew conglomerate effort.   So you give the Anheuser fake-micro-brew start-up a virtual snub and you move on down the line. Then after perhaps pacing in front of the maybe 60' of beer offering fridge-frontage space in that mega-liquor center you just can't make up your mind and for a moment you look back at your favorite, perhaps all that's even really worth considering is that line of delectable Dogfish Head but you know that after you take that $12.50 four-pack home you're only going to choke on it because either a) your are frustrated that you just paid that much for a beer or else you are sad because you drank it all so fast.   So there seems no good way to win.  

Also if you look carefully, what's really to choose from any more because 9 out of every 10 beers is a pale ale and you realize that while you were for a while entertained by a good six-pack of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale or Arrogant Bastard ale when it first came out, you've now become saddened that the numb nuts public has landed on pale ales and can't seem to shake the style while you moved on years ago to something more creative while seeking out a robust Porter or a milky Stout or maybe even a Red Ale if it was robust enough.   Then you search once again in the Sierra Nevada section and you can't believe how they discontinued their Porter and Stout offerings and you feel sorry for yourself for a moment, realizing how crazy it is that everyone seems 180-out on what you think is great.   But you ponder for a moment and realize that it won't be but maybe 9 more months until their next batch of Big Foot Barley Wine is out, because after all, if you are going to delve into a Pale Ale, you may as well jump into it head first - right?   But chances are, you are more and more likely to simply walk away empty handed from that beer isle and no matter how large it is and that's because there is one additional unforeseen factor that has crept into your shopping experience.

You see if you add in the aging factor where one reaches the point in life that after having a single beer and waking up the next morning feeling in the same shape as if they had been hit in the head with a 2x4, it turns out you realize your life has turned from a hedonistic pursuance of pleasure to one where you now have the uncanny ability to forecast by simply smelling of something, how bad you are going to feel and how many aspirin or alka setzer you are going to need the next day after you enjoy it.   And now as you gaze upon the once candy-storeed isles of beers and even expand this phenomenon to those all you can eat buffets, the song that Willie sings, "Reasons to quit, keep getting stronger all the time" becomes an all too familiar tune to you.   And if all this wasn't enough there will come a moment that you dive into an Italian dinner with perhaps a notable $100 bottle of Cabernet, but I've even given up wine because people often make the mistake of tasting something way over their budget and once you've had the absolute best, it's simply not worth that level of investment and in reality why would anyone want to go back to driving a Ford when they've been tooling around in a Ferrari?   So it's best to just order a soda.   Ginger Ale anyone?

Still fond memories of my beer drinking days are always prevalent in my mind.   I recall as a young man when I used to buy a case of Old Milwaukee and go out fishing.   I'd drink the beer until the pole fell out of my hand and at that point I knew it was time to drop the beer and start fishing again.   I'd do this all weekend.   Then there was college and making friends with the Schlitz beer delivery guys.   Turns out their boss removed all the chairs out of the local distributor hospitality rooms so those fellows and their friends would stop draining a new keg each evening.   I remember back then taking our girlfriends to their hospitality room and we would lean against the wall and drink until we all slid down to the floor.   Time to go and once one or two of us began falling off our wall-leaning perch, they'd blow the whistle saying it was time to go.   What great B.S. sessions we had back in that hospitality suite.    Today I don't know.   It's a pity to turn so damn particular or so damn wise that you can figure out how you will feel tomorrow from just looking or smelling something, but that's the way life goes I suppose.

Still all this can't stop those memories like all the fancy hotels I have frustrated in my youth by taking my own cooler poolside, or sneaking back into the kitchen area on the cruise ship after 10PM to seal and wash out a trash bucket, fill it with ice and chill down the case of beer I smuggled on board at the last port of call but my favorite memories of beer actually are swiping a lawn chair from a $30 dollar hotel on the beach in a small Mexican fishing village when I was staying at the $15 a night hotel without chairs and walking down the width of the entire town, which was only two sand roads and buying a 40 cent Cerveza Montejo from the tiny liquor store and walking back to my stolen beach chair, sunning and soaking in the sea until the sun went down each day.   Now that's something that's hard to beat.
 
--
Don - 2006 Navion J


old_b4_my_time
 

Back on topic (how did beer get brought into this LOL) but I think this guy has some really great info.   A mistake I made when I shared this before is not realizing there are 12 pages shared on this project.    While the website seems a little scattered, it's easy to miss the page count and that the research goes on.   What this guy is doing is not using solar but he is direct charging off the stock alternator a 400aH Lithionics bank.    I will likely follow the model eventually but I'm still going to pursue a solar presence on my setup because a little energy from solar is better than none.  (He's using only the alternator while claiming 1 hour of engine idle time equals an entire day of sunshine.)  His idea is not so green but many people when you remove the mask only want the power from the large lithium bank and they may not be as green as they would claim.    My real goal then would be to have a larger battery store backup from the cloudy or rainy days when I go over budget on consummption.   Right now dipping below a 50% SOC on a lead acid bank will leave a scar on the setup that doesn't go away, so from that perspective, it's good to have some extra storage during long cloud cover or rainy spells.   

Regardless, here is example I speak of when considering life without a B2B or DC2DC charger and how to manage something like that.   (Read all 12 pages for some interesting info.)
https://windinmyface.com/Sprinter-Electrical.html

Otherwise, I'm not crazy about a single BMS solution but I'm still on the fence.
--
Don - 2006 Navion J


rb3232 atgmail
 

To save everyone’s time.  Space Dust is hands down the best beer and I don’t care who makes it...

6sp2

On Oct 3, 2020, at 13:22, old_b4_my_time <donphillipe@...> wrote:

On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 03:43 PM, David J wrote:
Don, maybe you need another beer.
Again, not following you.   I normally enjoy beer most in a beach setting but it's been over a year now since I enjoyed a good beach and certainly time to get back, I'd agree.  Damn the Covid, aye?   All I can glean from this back and forth though is you must have a 3rd eye in that you are able to read deeper than the surface level of my words which I suppose is a notable gift.   It's almost a Chauncey Gardiner moment.   Regardless the bad thing about the great beers being brewed right now is if you can't get the one you want, your palate becomes tarnished to the point if you have to settle you end up more often than not, simply doing without.  You also are often faced with entering a gigantic liquor store seeking out something different and you see all these foo-foo hard ciders, pre-mixed cocktails and cheap trash honing in on your beer space from a few years ago and it makes you a little angry.   You also look at all the hopes and dreams of all the new brewers and after wasting hundreds of dollars on testing their new offerings you come to the conclusion that those dreams are mostly delusions, while some taste like variances of soaked garden weeds or someones stagnant copper pipe, even the best they have to offer which can't even contend with something like a Corona or Coors, bad as they are.  You also get a little torqued off when looking at the fine print one some new flashy-ad micro-brew contender while you pull out the smart phone and see it is actually made by Budweiser or Heineken.  Fake beer!  Then for a few moments you consider relocating all that particular stock to the domestic beer doors near the front of the building, but then realize it's not worth a trip to the police station for simply making one thing just in this world, by exposing one more fake micro-brew conglomerate effort.   So you give the Anheuser fake-micro-brew start-up a virtual snub and you move on down the line. Then after perhaps pacing in front of the maybe 60' of beer offering fridge-frontage space in that mega-liquor center you just can't make up your mind and for a moment you look back at your favorite, perhaps all that's even really worth considering is that line of delectable Dogfish Head but you know that after you take that $12.50 four-pack home you're only going to choke on it because either a) your are frustrated that you just paid that much for a beer or else you are sad because you drank it all so fast.   So there seems no good way to win.  

Also if you look carefully, what's really to choose from any more because 9 out of every 10 beers is a pale ale and you realize that while you were for a while entertained by a good six-pack of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale or Arrogant Bastard ale when it first came out, you've now become saddened that the numb nuts public has landed on pale ales and can't seem to shake the style while you moved on years ago to something more creative while seeking out a robust Porter or a milky Stout or maybe even a Red Ale if it was robust enough.   Then you search once again in the Sierra Nevada section and you can't believe how they discontinued their Porter and Stout offerings and you feel sorry for yourself for a moment, realizing how crazy it is that everyone seems 180-out on what you think is great.   But you ponder for a moment and realize that it won't be but maybe 9 more months until their next batch of Big Foot Barley Wine is out, because after all, if you are going to delve into a Pale Ale, you may as well jump into it head first - right?   But chances are, you are more and more likely to simply walk away empty handed from that beer isle and no matter how large it is and that's because there is one additional unforeseen factor that has crept into your shopping experience.

You see if you add in the aging factor where one reaches the point in life that after having a single beer and waking up the next morning feeling in the same shape as if they had been hit in the head with a 2x4, it turns out you realize your life has turned from a hedonistic pursuance of pleasure to one where you now have the uncanny ability to forecast by simply smelling of something, how bad you are going to feel and how many aspirin or alka setzer you are going to need the next day after you enjoy it.   And now as you gaze upon the once candy-storeed isles of beers and even expand this phenomenon to those all you can eat buffets, the song that Willie sings, "Reasons to quit, keep getting stronger all the time" becomes an all too familiar tune to you.   And if all this wasn't enough there will come a moment that you dive into an Italian dinner with perhaps a notable $100 bottle of Cabernet, but I've even given up wine because people often make the mistake of tasting something way over their budget and once you've had the absolute best, it's simply not worth that level of investment and in reality why would anyone want to go back to driving a Ford when they've been tooling around in a Ferrari?   So it's best to just order a soda.   Ginger Ale anyone?

Still fond memories of my beer drinking days are always prevalent in my mind.   I recall as a young man when I used to buy a case of Old Milwaukee and go out fishing.   I'd drink the beer until the pole fell out of my hand and at that point I knew it was time to drop the beer and start fishing again.   I'd do this all weekend.   Then there was college and making friends with the Schlitz beer delivery guys.   Turns out their boss removed all the chairs out of the local distributor hospitality rooms so those fellows and their friends would stop draining a new keg each evening.   I remember back then taking our girlfriends to their hospitality room and we would lean against the wall and drink until we all slid down to the floor.   Time to go and once one or two of us began falling off our wall-leaning perch, they'd blow the whistle saying it was time to go.   What great B.S. sessions we had back in that hospitality suite.    Today I don't know.   It's a pity to turn so damn particular or so damn wise that you can figure out how you will feel tomorrow from just looking or smelling something, but that's the way life goes I suppose.

Still all this can't stop those memories like all the fancy hotels I have frustrated in my youth by taking my own cooler poolside, or sneaking back into the kitchen area on the cruise ship after 10PM to seal and wash out a trash bucket, fill it with ice and chill down the case of beer I smuggled on board at the last port of call but my favorite memories of beer actually are swiping a lawn chair from a $30 dollar hotel on the beach in a small Mexican fishing village when I was staying at the $15 a night hotel without chairs and walking down the width of the entire town, which was only two sand roads and buying a 40 cent Cerveza Montejo from the tiny liquor store and walking back to my stolen beach chair, sunning and soaking in the sea until the sun went down each day.   Now that's something that's hard to beat.
 
--
Don - 2006 Navion J


David J
 

The pages from windinmyface are in the direction anyone researching this should be looking, real measurements rather than supposition. Calculations based on a model are equally valid, if and only if you've captured all the relevant variables in the model. The main piece that's been missed is that cells and wires have significant resistance, which limits the current (and imposes its own requirements, such as getting rid of the heat dissipated.) I did the calculations for a 100 AH Battleborn and satisfied myself that with 4 gauge wire between the main house battery bank and the lithium under the bed was enough to provide a margin of safety if the pack BMS failed. I think I would use a circuit breaker to protect the alternator if I had four of them. Cal's approach of a dc-dc converter to set the voltages to desired levels is another valid approach, but adds another layer of complexity and potential failure.

There's also the issue that some cells of the same basic chemistry have different maximum charge voltages. Cal picked 3.48 volts, CALB says 3.65 maximum, Battleborn says 14.4 pack voltage (3.6 per cell) and their BMS trips at 3.68 per cell. The reason for the maximum voltage is to limit the amount of heat generated inside the pack, because the SOC and the cell internal resistance will set the actual potential across the cell. Other LiFePO4 cells have different limits, and packs will add their own resistance.

Calbiker, I think this might actually be the right forum for this discussion because we are specifically interested in what capacity we can prudently add to a V/N. 

I won't claim that I'm a battery expert, no one has paid me to do that. But I have spent the last three years learning about lithium cell behavior as part of a small engineering team working on electric aircraft, and I got to ask a lot of questions of some of the real experts (my expertise is in another area of this effort.) It becomes really interesting when you have 100-200 kWh of batteries that determine whether something stays in the air or not. 

My point is to recommend that people actually do the arithmetic to verify and validate their assumptions rather than taking anyone's word for it. It's all Ohm's law which isn't hard. Simplicate and add lightness, please...


old_b4_my_time
 

On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 11:39 PM, David J wrote:
100-200 kWh of batteries that determine whether something stays in the air or not
Is that onboard lithium going to need to be in checked luggage or will the requirement remain that it be a passenger carry-on?   Also will we be warned before booking a lithium powered flight?   The resistance encountered may be other than electron-based - Stay-ohme's law.   :-) 

--
Don - 2006 Navion J


ERH
 

Thanks Dunc,  I ordered the Multi 3k 12,12,30a from Battle Born and expect delivery by Oct 12.  Earl